Monday, January 30, 2006

Clinton Said What?

In Doha, Qatar, former Pres. Clinton condemnded the Danish cartoons that have got the Muslim world all worked up. While the rest of the EU is standing in soladarity with the Danes and Norwiegens, Clinton panders to his Muslim audience. Clinton tells his audience:

"So now what are we going to do? ... Replace the anti-Semitic prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice?" he said at an economic conference in the Qatari capital of Doha.
"In Europe, most of the struggles we've had in the past 50 years have been to fight prejudices against Jews, to fight against anti-Semitism," he said.
Clinton described as "appalling" the 12 cartoons published in a Danish newspaper in September depicting Prophet Mohammed and causing uproar in the Muslim world.
"None of us are totally free of stereotypes about people of different races, different ethnic groups, and different religions ... there was this appalling example in northern Europe, in Denmark ... these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam," he said."

So Mr. Clinton, this is how you defend freedom of the press? You're pathetic!!!

Add on: EU Office in Gaza stormed by gunmen, protesting the Danish cartoons, which portray Mohamhed. EU council stands with the Danes.

Tomorrow I go out to buy Danish ham and cheese.

See the "offensive" cartoons here.

56 Comments:

At 9:55 AM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Chas,

I just sent this to the BBC:
I am opposed to the criminalization of blasphemy. No secular state should permit it.
in response to their news item France enters Muslim cartoon row.

That's my bottom line. I'm sorry that politicians and diplomats feel that they need to pander to religionists of whatever cloth.

 
At 7:46 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

Chas,

The cartoons are offensive - and not especially funny. While I agree with defending the right to publish things that are offensive, one doesn't have to applaud the offense.

Think of it this way - the inalienable right to free speech may mean that you can go up to a woman and tell her she's fat and ugly. It doesn't mean you're not an asshole if you do.

 
At 8:03 PM, Blogger Chas said...

I'm not necessarily applauding the original "offense." I'm applauding the fact that they are defendinf free speech under the threat of violence.Things like these cartoons happen in all free societies. Here in the States a few years back, a piece of "art" was a crucifex in a bottle of urine. Offend us Catholic? Sure. Did we threaten to kill the artist, burn down the building, or boycott all the museums? NO, NO, No!

 
At 9:16 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

Chas,

No, no, no?

This is pretty current:

"The controversial drama The Book of Daniel, starring actor Aidan Quinn as a pill-popping Episcopal priest, has been canceled.

The show was a target for conservative religious groups who were upset that the main character, Father Daniel Webster, conducted regular chats with Jesus as he popped painkillers.

The show also features storylines dealing with drug dealing, alcoholism and homosexuality, which also outraged religious groups, who petitioned to get the show canceled.

A television station in Indiana had to post security outside their studios after receiving death threats for airing the controversial religious drama."

 
At 9:17 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

Sorry, forgot the URL on that:

here

 
At 9:44 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

By the way - Andres Serrano (author of the work you mentioned) received death threats also, and lost funding (not just him).

Similarly there were threats against Scorcese for Last Temptation, accompanied by boycotts aplenty, plus violence including screen slashing and arson at cinemas.

Dan Brown has reportedly received numerous death threats for the Da Vinci Code.

 
At 11:10 PM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Chas,

Frank is right on the Serrano art work. I've seen that example used as a counterpoint to the Mohammed cartoons, but you do have to check the facts.

In case you are not familiar with the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights and its president Bill Donohue, they are speaking out for you and all Catholics against any and all blasphemous art.

My point of view is that private individuals can and should express concern about offensive art, but no government should outlaw it in the name of protecting us from blasphemy.

 
At 11:34 PM, Blogger Chas said...

The fact that a few Christian nut-jobs were doing that with the aformentioned items doesn't rise to the level of what is happening in this case. Ambassadors are being withdrawn. Embassies closed. The EU office in Gaza taken by gunman.
I've said somewhere, ATW maybe, the the Muslims have every right to boycott. The money is their's to buy Danish products or not. It's the threat of violence that I don't like.

 
At 11:29 AM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Chas,

Sometime we will have to have an extended discussion about Catholicism in today's America, but, in the meantime, we have forgotten the viewpoint of Danish Jews on the cartoon issue. I recommend this LETTER FROM COPENHAGEN.

 
At 1:38 PM, Blogger Chas said...

Alan, that was an interesting read. Thanks. Gotta go right now, I'll need to digest it.

 
At 3:08 PM, Blogger Alison said...

Why is our cultural right to satire met with such violence? After all we permit their cultural rights of say, a burka without resorting to such stupid threats. The burqa deeply offends me as a woman.

A newspaper made this exact point - it was not a gratuitous attack on islam. Muslims need to get a better grip on the seperation of religeon from state in western society - or elect to live elsewhere.

A free press is as the French well know an essential component to freedom and democracy. This differs from a set of christians opposing the Da Vinci Code or a bunch of hindus trying to ban a play. If the people they are calling to do so give in then so be it. But the press must always be allowed to speak out against pressure and must always be allowed to criticise no matter who it offends.

Acts of violence are being carried out in the NAME of Mohammed all the time but noone seems inclined to go beserk about that in the west.

The french press were key to resistance against the last set of fascists to gain a strangle hold on europe and the world.

Im thrilled to see Le Monde come out in support tonight.

 
At 4:19 PM, Blogger Chas said...

Alison, I totally agree and welcome! The governments of the ME keep asking for the Danish gov to punish the paper or close it down, or make sure this never happens again. The just don't get it or us, and really don't care to find out. I think they've really pissed off Europe this time!

 
At 4:34 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

"a few Christian nut-jobs"

"This differs from a set of christians opposing the Da Vinci Code or a bunch of hindus trying to ban a play."

Jeez...when it's anyone but muslims it's a "set" or "a few nutjobs" and their threats of murder and bombs and violence and boycotts are just gentle 'opposing' and 'trying'.

When it's muslims it's "they" and "their" only reaction is violence.

Muslims need to get a better grip on the seperation of religeon from state in western society - or elect to live elsewhere.

And now it's back to all muslims again. Yet plenty of muslims understand that, and plenty of all religions need to get a grip on this, don't they? Elect to live elsewhere? No. They only have to obey the law.

Acts of violence are being carried out in the NAME of Mohammed all the time but noone seems inclined to go beserk about that in the west.

You have got to be kidding.

 
At 4:54 PM, Blogger Alison said...

"Islam forbids its followers all representations of the Prophet ... the question that is posed is the following: are all those who aren't Muslims bound to conform to that? Can you imagine a society that adopted the strictures of various religions? What would happen to the freedom to think, to speak, or even to come and go? Societies like this, we know them too well. They are, for example, Iran of the Mullahs. And yesterday it was France of the Inquisition ..."

Great stuff coming out of Le Monde tonight. Silly dull cartoons elicit excellent debate b/cause muslims cant bear western culture of criticism. Hurray for the press. LONG may it continue.

 
At 5:02 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

Acts of violence are being carried out in the NAME of Mohammed all the time but noone seems inclined to go beserk about that in the west.

"There are only two possible reactions if you want to stop this bomb terrorism - either you expel all Muslims from Western Europe so they cannot plant bombs, or you exterminate the fanatical Muslims which would mean killing a substantial part of Muslim immigrants."
- Kaj Wilhelmsen reasons

 
At 5:15 PM, Blogger Chas said...

Again Frank, it's a matter of degree. You can't deny the fact that many, many, people in the ME are going ape shit over 12 cartoons. BTW, you did a good thing by trying to bring some moderation to that Joblog thread.Frank O'dwyer, "the voice of reason!" OMG!

 
At 5:38 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

Again Frank, it's a matter of degree. You can't deny the fact that many, many, people in the ME are going ape shit over 12 cartoons.

Whereas only a few people in the west are?

I do see your point about the difference in degree but is that in degree of protest or degree of violence? And is it a case of looking at Muslims through sh*t colored glasses?

I think it's pretty likely that this is going to escalate into violence from both sides, each convinced that the other started it.

BTW, you did a good thing by trying to bring some moderation to that Joblog thread.Frank O'dwyer, "the voice of reason!" OMG!

lol...shocking isn't it.

 
At 6:07 PM, Blogger Alison said...

And is it a case of looking at Muslims through sh*t colored glasses?

Or is it the other way round. Muslims in Britain have criticised the BBC and warned them to expect similar violence because, Frank, they showed glimpses of the images AND DISCUSSED them in a radio PHONE IN in a news bulletin. So were subject to censorship now also. Pathetic fascists.

 
At 2:01 AM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

Or is it the other way round.

Fair point. It is two-way traffic.

Muslims in Britain have criticised the BBC and warned them to expect similar violence because, Frank, they showed glimpses of the images AND DISCUSSED them in a radio PHONE IN in a news bulletin.

I've not heard of anybody threatening the BBC nor calling for violence have you? Of course it's a matter of time before both sides make sure there is violence. But here's what I read:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2022921,00.html

"World News

The Times February 03, 2006

'The BBC should have learnt not to disrespect faith'
By Russell Jenkins and Dan Sabbagh
MUSLIMS in Burnley said last night that the BBC could face the kind of backlash for broadcasting the images of Muhammad as Salman Rushdie did for writing The Satanic Verses.

They were also angered that listeners to BBC’s Radio Five Live were asked to take part in a text vote on the issue. Dilawar Hussain, 38, who runs a takeaway close to where race riots started in 2001, said: “This is going to cause the same kind of furore. They should have learnt the lesson not to disrespect people’s faith.”

Mr Hussain, born and bred in Burnley, made a pilgrimage to Mecca last year. “We are very upset about the BBC coverage. This is like attacking another person’s faith. It seems personal. When people start making false impressions of our Prophet on television we will not allow it.

“We will do just as we have done in the past by going around the town centre making sure people know that we have been hurt deeply. It will be a strong march.”

Azhar Mahmood, a taxi driver, said: “It is not a joke. It is a serious offence to Muslims.”

Mohammed Ali, 17, a student, said: “It is wrong to show these images. It creates conflict. Everybody is talking about it. It is a matter of respect. What we would like is an apology.” "

 
At 7:40 AM, Blogger Alison said...

Ive read all the bits Frank. The bit where we can expect the same kind of backlash as for the Sat Verses is the threat Frank. Salman Rushdie lived with it - it was a DEATH threat. Ive seen the cartoon the muslins created to counter. You know the one with the Danish editor having his wrist and throat cut.

We maintain the right to criticise. It is a right. Im surprised you bother posting comments and countering me if you dont hold this right to be in any way important.

 
At 9:50 AM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Alison,

Im surprised you bother posting comments and countering me if you dont hold this right to be in any way important.

Please explicate.

 
At 10:30 AM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

The bit where we can expect the same kind of backlash as for the Sat Verses is the threat Frank. Salman Rushdie lived with it - it was a DEATH threat.

Yes it was - and notice how no Muslim in that article is actually quoted as making anything like it. It's just the Times making it look that way.

When you read what they actually say: One guy wants to march through town, another guy feels disrespected and wants an apology.

Then the chinese whisper machine turns that into 'all muslims want to petrol bomb broadcasting house'.

Ive seen the cartoon the muslins created to counter.

To says that "the muslims" created that is as daft as the other side's notion that "the danes" created the original cartoon.

We maintain the right to criticise. It is a right.

It certainly is. And I've never said otherwise. So is PEACEFUL protest a right, and for the same reason.

What dismays me is the identification of extremists with all Muslims - whether through throwaway remark or because it is actually believed - that's all.

It's as if people on both sides want to have a sectarian conflict such as existed in NI, just this time across the whole globe.

 
At 11:27 AM, Blogger Chas said...

frank, I think you're being a bit pedantic when someone says "the muslims" here. Obviously I or Alison mean the muslims who are making threats, not all muslims.

I agree that peaceful protest is their right. I also agree with you that this is going to turn violent somewhere, b/c for the same reason they don't understand freedom of the press, they don't understand peaceful protest. ( Not all muslims, remember, just the ones we're talking about, the ones making threats)

 
At 11:29 AM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Frank,

It's as if people on both sides want to have a sectarian conflict such as existed in NI, just this time across the whole globe.

You know it is true that there are people on both sides who are fomenting conflict, using the same zero-sum logic as still exists in NI.

 
At 11:35 AM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Chas,

I have no doubt about your point of view or of Alison's, but you must admit that many people (especially on ATW) rationalize from the few (or even one) to the many. That was why I took David Vance to task for criticizing ALL the French because ONE French newspaper owner fired his Editor over publishing the cartoons. Once Vance opened the floodgates, other posters were free to dump on the ALL the French, and they did.

I would like to thank Alison again for her reasoned posts on that ATW thread.

 
At 1:19 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

frank, I think you're being a bit pedantic when someone says "the muslims" here. Obviously I or Alison mean the muslims who are making threats, not all muslims.

I think you probably do yes. But I think you also *expect* Muslims to make threats, and sometimes you (people in general) see what you expect to see. And sometimes other people will only show you what you expect to see.

And there are plenty who generalise from 'some Muslims' to all of Islam...which is about as defensible as the idea that organised religion causes wars. I'm not much of a fan of religion but I don't believe that.

Would you think I was being pedantic if I made the mirror of these statements regarding Muslims except regarding Christian or Catholic violence?

I agree that peaceful protest is their right. I also agree with you that this is going to turn violent somewhere, b/c for the same reason they don't understand freedom of the press, they don't understand peaceful protest. ( Not all muslims, remember, just the ones we're talking about, the ones making threats)

And when some idiot goes out and kills some random Muslims because of all this - whose fault will that be? The Muslims again, right?

 
At 1:42 PM, Blogger Chas said...

Now Frank, I remember you taking Monica to task for putting words in your mouth.

"I think you probably do yes. But I think you also *expect* Muslims to make threats, and sometimes you (people in general) see what you expect to see."

I said I don't paint all Muslims with the same brush, yet you "think" I probably do. What do base this statement on?

 
At 1:48 PM, Blogger Chas said...

Unless I'm reading that wrong and you are thinking that I don't.

Then again you say you think I expect all muslims to make threats.
No, I don't. I just have eyes in my head and see that alot are.

If someone randomly goes out and kills someone innocent, the perp would be to blame and our law would deal with them.

Alan is right when he says that a mob mentality can easily take over, however.

 
At 2:29 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

Unless I'm reading that wrong and you are thinking that I don't.

Yes, the latter.

Then again you say you think I expect all muslims to make threats.
No, I don't. I just have eyes in my head and see that alot are.


Well, no I don't mean 'all' there...I just think it is all too easy for the stereotype of the muslim psychopath to get extended to most muslims - or just muslims who 'look the part' - as a form of prejudice.

The implication seems to be that Islam causes it. I can see how it would be a tool for the cynical(like any blind faith), but I don't see that.

If someone randomly goes out and kills someone innocent, the perp would be to blame and our law would deal with them.

Alan is right when he says that a mob mentality can easily take over, however.


Agreed on both counts. This is why times like these you have get quite pedantic about the rule of law in my view. There was reportedly some demonstrations outside the Danish embassy in London today where there were placards such as "behead the one who insults the prophet"...I hope these people find themselves in the dock beside the likes of Nick Griffin. Justice has to be blind right now, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

 
At 3:15 PM, Blogger Alison said...

Alan - I was referring to what i think is the lack of value associated with free speech. The blogosphere and commenters here seem to thrive on free speech and enjoy it - but prefer to defend islamofascists on this issue by suggesting the press are applauding the nature of the cartoons rather than free speech itself. The result of this is to pander to bigots - we will end up with no free speech. So if you value your right to post here, support the press. We should hold free speech and the our right to criticise dearer than the upset it causes some muslim bigots.

Alan, thanks for your comment. I think ATW opens very good debate - whilst i might not always agree with David on say, Europe, its a site that really cherishes vigorous debate and does so with an open mind(thread)(!).

Frank the pr work on associating extremists with all muslims needs to come from within their own communities. The 'peaceful' protest that i cut way through on my way home today where ordinary muslims were supporting placards calling for death, throat cutting and a european 9/11 do more damage to this faith than a bunch of second rate cartoons. Why dont they ever use our free speech to aggressively and publicly root out the extremist pov?

As for Mr Griffin i heard no such violent threats from him to merit him being in the dock. The BBC & CPS were foolish to engage in this. The BNP have had their pr done for them.

 
At 3:15 PM, Blogger Alison said...

sorry for the overly long post its been a long day!

 
At 3:21 PM, Blogger Chas said...

Well said Alison. When you get more time you must give us a report of that protest!

 
At 7:20 PM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Alison,

Thank you for the fuller explanation of your earlier comment. It is surely ironic that "the State dept, Straw and our governments are surrender monkeys" and that Hamid Karzai (the man they put in charge of Afghanistan) issued a statement condemning "in the strongest terms" France Soir's publication of the cartoons.

 
At 7:23 PM, Blogger Alan_McDonald said...

Chas,

I think you are at work right now, so I'll wait 'til tomorrow to get your reaction to the State Department's "surrender monkey" stance. Monica is already fuming over it on Grizzly Mama.

 
At 4:47 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

The 'peaceful' protest that i cut way through on my way home today where ordinary muslims were supporting placards calling for death, throat cutting and a european 9/11 do more damage to this faith than a bunch of second rate cartoons.

Alison in what way were these 'ordinary muslims' compared to the droves of muslims who were not there?

This was the action of an extremist minority. What beggars belief is why they were not immediately arrested.

"Passersby stopped police officers to ask why the marchers were being allowed to carry banners threatening further suicide attacks in the city. One police officer replied: "Don't worry. We are photographing them.""

Photographing them???

 
At 4:48 PM, Anonymous Frank O'Dwyer said...

(sorry, that last quote was from here

 
At 11:01 PM, Blogger Chas said...

Frank may have a point about "ordinary" vs "extremist".

 
At 12:20 PM, Blogger Alison said...

Where are the droves of moderate muslims protesting at this. And 7/7? Incidentally there were large nos of muslims standing by laughing at the whole thing (funny placards?) whilst other non muslim citizens were rallying round the police demanding action. Why didnt that include the muslim bystanders. Dont they care that their religeon is ill perceived and being used to advocate violence. BNP marches are vociferously attacked by the left. Its up to muslims to change Islams image. I have a niggly feeling a large nos here dont want to because it suits them? Id like to see more of an aggressive challenge mounted on this issue. By them. Show me the money! ;) Not liberal politicians speaking for them.

 
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